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Quote from a piracy thread: "Red Dead Redemption uses some obfuscation written by the same folks that sold previous obfuscation as 'Arxan'. This has become a feature of complex DRM. There's no grand mystery, it's a classically challenging problem using new ways of writing frustrating-to-reverse bullshit. I work on anti-DRM techniques for a living. The experience has shifted my views of DRM. Originally, I saw DRM as highly anti-consumer, and a waste of time and clock cycles. Arguably I do still believe that - but now I have great respect for the technical side of good DRM implementations, and I acknowledge that they provide a time buffer to protect against the first wave of piracy. I've stripped Arxran's protections from software in the past, and I might just have a look at breaking RDR2 now it's been brought to my attention It's definitely anticonsumer. I've no doubt that from a technical point of view, both DRM and the efforts to crack it are fascinating and interesting. What I don't understand is this: consumers don't crack DRM; crackers and warez groups do. Once cracked, DRM is as good as nothing and it's low effort for an everyday gamer to get and play pirated games. So this antipiracy "buffer" is only for crackers. For gamers it's just as if the game had a delayed release date. For legit customers, the DRM is often intrusive and, because it's so complex and fiddly, often breaks in bizarre ways, giving rise to the paradoxical situation that the legit game is harder to use than the pirated game! Only legitimate buyers lose. Most of the sales happen in a short period after the release. Plus there's the issue of not buying DRM'ed games out of principle. This post is literally about a game that never did that so what's your point? This is literally the only recent exception. According to CrackWatch there are at least exceptions. AniseAbyss on Sept 17, [—]. The way I see it, considering games are made to make money, the only alternative to DRM is going free to play. They then make their money with microtransactions. I think you're overstating this quite a bit. It's basically only true for games that are single-player with a few exceptions , and are not currently receiving frequent updates or you are categorically not interested in updates. Besides that, e. Steam is extremely convenient; installs are rapid and safe, saves are synced across different machines, mods are often well integrated with Steam Workshop, etc. For many, the above list is easily worth the price to pay. It's not like once DRM is cracked, sales drop to zero. For me Steam is a huge annoiance: every time I want to play a game it keep bugging me with that the client needs an update or with chat windows. It is slow and sluggish compared to the steam store website. And worst of all, some games don't play when you're offline, even though they are just single player games. Maybe it's because I'm just a casual player nowadays so features like friends lists that keep popping up are not useful for me and the frequent updates never change anything because I'm not using any of the features they update. But Steam is not the solution for everyone. There's two ways you can get rid of the friends list chat windows Create a shortcut for Steam that includes the "-nofriendsui" parameter in it's target. Stop having friends. Steam is indeed very convenient though occasionally annoying: like a sibling comment said, I don't need its "social" features and its popups annoy me. Note that before Steam, GOG, etc, when games were sold on discs, piracy was really more convenient. Nowadays the issue is contested, though DRM remains annoying as hell. I do place Steam in a different category, and I own many of their games. Steam is extremely convenient; For me, Steam is basically spyware that I don't want on my laptop. It's actually a barrier to me playing games because when I rarely consider purchasing something then see it's in Steam, my usual reaction is not too bother. It's my computer, I don't want a 3rd party "store" managing my installs. I feel the same way about the windows store fwiw. Didn't know about this one, interesting. But I've never found it hard to install mods for games in the past, without Steam. Overall it's something I never needed and now that it's being pushed on me, I don't want it. Merem on Sept 17, [—]. Steam Workshop is also part of Valve's "walled garden" strategy. Say that you bought a game off GOG and looking for some specific mods. If they aren't on Nexus, Moddb or some other website but only on Steam Workshop where too many are , you won't be able to get access to them. So you either enter Steam's garden where they will try everything to make sure you won't leave I hear you, and the privacy arguments are valid. No, not really. Compared with piracy, their servers are generally much faster than torrenting with the exception of insanely popular items on torrents. Installed games are listed in one place, and tend to uninstall instantly, which is not the case with most normal installers. Their installer manager can also do verification of game file integrity, which is surprisingly often a solution to people's crash problems. In terms of safety, viruses are a non-issue, unlike torrented games. I do get the privacy arguments, and tend to agree with those. A good alternative would be GoG, which has a decent catalog of games, and offers both offline, DRM-free installers I believe this is still the case , or a Steam-style download manager for those that want the convenience. I'm unsure, but looking at the company behind it, I would argue they are "slightly less evil", and would probably make even their downloader more privacy-friendly. But really, I think this is all really just a case of whether our needs match that of the average bloke on the street. It's like the whole NoJS argument for websites - I torrent movies occasionally and even fairly unpopular ones often max out my download speed. Unless you're downloading something obscure, bittorrent is really fast. It's quite possible that our experiences differ. It may well be my VPN provider, though it does seem to depend on popularity, choice of exit endpoint, etc. Steam's CDN Limelight provides the fastest download speed in my experience like Mbps, limited by my connection. Maybe very popular torrent is also faster but not to be guarantee to be. In a game like rimworld where it can be typical to run with 30 or 50 mods at a time and swap out different ones, you need a system and steam workshop is that system. ThatPlayer on Sept 17, [—]. But it's not the only system. Factorio, like Rimworld, has a huge mod scene and has it built into the game instead. Which has the advantage of working outside of Steam on a DRM-free or not-steam copy, which like another reply says, just makes Steam Workshop another form of lock-in on Steam. AngryData on Sept 17, [—]. Except the forced updates can easily break mods and managing your mods with the steam workshop is garbage. Even the terminology is bad, subscribed doesn't mean download and install to me. Workshop isn't perfect but it's a good enough solution for most games. Especially simulator games where the authors knew how to make a sim but have no idea how to handle mods for example. I think you can stick to a specific version if you want with rimworld, many mods are updated fairly fast although and even if they haven't been updated tend to work anyway. Camas on Sept 17, [—]. This is stuff you only read on certain forums. Most people don't even notice DRM. I remember trying to play Batman Arkham Asylum back in the day and it was a pain in the ass. First Steam. Then it wanted me to log in to some silly Windows Game system. It's a single player game and I bought it via Steam, where I'm already logged in. Anyway, I couldn't register and got tons of errors until I finally managed it. Then it wanted me to download a ton of updates almost as much as the original download over a slow internet connection. It's a single player game, for crying out loud -- let me choose whether I want the updates! I had downloaded the game the day before, I had a couple of spare hours and wanted to play the goddamn game spoiler: I wasn't able to that day. Had I downloaded the warezed version, I wouldn't have needed: a- Steam, b- the Windows whatever login, c- the updates. Best experience goes to: pirated version. Had I wanted the patches: pirates eventually release updated versions, too. Which is almost never. There's even repackers who can get the file size down to less than a third of the original size. I buy all my games these days but there are people who do lots of thankless work and I'm not sure why. Many enjoy exploring the limits of what is possible. I can't play games that I've purchased because of DRM. In some cases because I've switched to linux and the security breaching rootkits that they want me to install don't work correctly there. In other cases it's very old games for which the authentication servers no longer exist. It's a real problem. IntelMiner on Sept 17, [—]. Steam and Proton beg to disagree. So the status of EAC under Linux is a giant question mark. That's most anti-cheats, not just Epic's. BattleEye has taken it a step further and even blocked virtual machines. Watch out then. Seems to be speculation and anecdata but thanks for the link all the same, wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be true. Haven't played multiplayer in a few weeks so I could be in for an unpleasant surprise next time It is quite telling that studios rather target ChromeOS or Android than any proper Linux distribution, the days of Loki are long gone. And the reason anticheat did not works with wine is mostly because they use kernel modules, which you obviously can't run a windows kernel module on linux kernel. If you run it in a VM, most of them will just fine with it. But the Battleye will give you a big "fxxk you". Granted I've only worked in smaller studios - but anecdotally, OP is correct - game companies don't care about Linux users, high expense for such a small market share. Which is kind of funny its very difficult to pirate games on linux but easy to pay for a pretty good selection of games. Windows has a larger selection but its also incredibly trivial to pirate. I've never bought more games than when I had no windows install at all. You can trivially play Windows games on Linux thanks to Steam Play and proton. I've done so since Most games that don't work are broken because of DRM. Some more are broken because of some minor thing like missing video codec but very few games actually use proprietary codecs like WMV. The rest just work. I didn't have a good experience with it in after much fiddling I couldn't get proton to work for anything despite having reasonable success with wine and crossover. Maybe it works better on Ubuntu. Those who don't notice it are those who aren't aware of what DRM even means. As long as it's not multiplayer, legit repacks and cracked releases are almost always an improvement to a DRM'd release unless the game's official release on which the cracked release is based on itself is buggy. Most people don't even notice DRM I can give this a "me too" to an extant. I use to be like, "Rah rah! Down with DRM! This thread is an example of this. I saw the thread title and was like, "Oh right DRM and cracking games Adverblessly on Sept 17, [—]. The publishers and developers apparently also lose The results are not what they expected so they try and hide them. This is "leaked" by a member of parliament. According to that study, specifically for game piracy, every copy of the game that was pirated resulted in 1. So the only ones who don't lose are those making the DRM. If twice as many paying customers means half the prices, then there is a benefit to consumers. The truth is somewhere between these two extremes of course. That would give a window of N days without making the game worse forever. I believe the cracked games are on sufficiently obscure websites to be a deterrent to regular users. One could even argue that it is pro consumer by making sure the revenue will go back to paying consumers in the form of additional content, instead of paying for players who didn't buy it. This is just one piece of anecdata, but I'm perfectly capable of pirating games yet haven't in years. I buy everything on steam or gog because it's so convenient. The last time I pirated any video games was suprise surprise when I wasn't making enough income to buy them. TV series on the other hand I still pirate to this day if they aren't on the couple of streaming services I sub to , because buying them is way too complicated even impossible with a large portion of shows that aren't current, and a fair number of current shows too. Movies are a mixed bag - grabbing cheap dvds or blu rays of pretty much anything is easy online so I usually do that, but I imagine if I preferred digital media or watched enough movies for my physical collection to be unwieldy I'd resort to piracy because buying digital copies of movies is just as complicated as TV. Give me "Steam for Movies and TV" or a streaming service that aggregates licenses from everyone, and doesn't only host the content that they think will be most popular and I'll probably stop pirating those too. Causality1 on Sept 17, [—]. It's the unreliability I can't tolerate. I don't pirate pc games because when I buy something on Steam it will always be available for me to download, even if a licensing problem means other people can't buy it. With streaming, who knows? Maybe Netflix loses the rights and it disappears. Maybe their encode is garbage and it ruins the dark scenes. So, I still pay for streaming services but anything I actually care about I download and archive. That is interesting because it happened to me in the most annoying way possible: I was watching Donnie Darko, a rather obscure movie that requires or at least for me required a bit of brainpower to watch. So I watched the first half of it and planned to watch the remainder the next day. Come the next day, and where is the movie? Nowhere to be found. I had bookmarked Donnie Darko because, while I had already watched it good movie, even better soundtrack! I wanted to watch it again with my wife. I swear it was available the week before I finally decided to rewatch it, then of course it was gone when I wanted it. By the way, I know this doesn't actually happen, but I swear Netflix sticks in my bookmarks movies and shows I never bookmarked! That happened to me with Stargate SG Was going through it on Netflix and suddenly it disappeared. Eventually resurfaced on Amazon Prime but the video quality is garbage on it for some reason. Prime Video quality seems breathtakingly bad to me as well. I actually didn't mean video quality on Amazon Prime in general. For example, we just got done watching Mr. Robot on Amazon Prime and I had no issues with the video, personally. But Stargate SG-1 was particularly bad, for some reason. Worse than SD, lots of artifacts. I was mid-way through watching the newly released on Netflix S2 of "Derry Girls" and they deleted it mere days after making it available. I was annoyed. Turns out they had messed up the rights. I for one still use Steam, but I do wonder if I'll be able to play my favorite games in 20 years. Same boat for movies. I used to use icefilms or torrents extensively for every film. But now my first stop is Justwatch to find out what service has the film I want to watch, and then I log into that service and buy it. Admittedly some services, like RedBox, are more frustrating than torrenting though. Another big deterrent to pirating games is the possibility of it installing malware in your system. That danger is almost exclusive to software piracy. The probability of being infected by an evil pdf, mp3 or mp4 is really low if you know what you're doing i. Adding my voice to this argument: Xbox live stopped my pirating simply by providing a more easily accessible alternative and with prices that are competitive enough for me to prefer to pay for games rather than getting through the hassle of pirating. This included RDR2. Totally worth it. Cracked games websites are as obscure as The Pirate Bay, i. Even if you weren't aware of where to get warez, your friends will be. It punishes buyers with encumbered software while merely delaying pirates a short while. Pirates end up with the better experience, so I even tried explaining how to use them to people, but they would object that the school would catch them anyway. I think there are two main reasons for this. Wink, wink. All it takes is one of your friends who knows how to. Then they'll share with you. And much like opening PDFs, this isn't rocket science. The base knowledge here is people who know how to install and play pretty complex games. These people go to impossible lengths to install video drivers and troubleshoot problems with their computers; I'm sure they won't find this particular task very difficult. I don't think it's the obscurity of the website that is doing it these days. I have plenty of money so I haven't downloaded warez for a long time. But if I were even tempted the possibility of getting hit with embedded ransomware would completely deter me, my multiple offsite backups notwithstanding. ChrisRR on Sept 17, [—]. For gamers, it means that the studio may be able to afford to release a sequel to their favourite games For pirates, it means they either have to wait until it's cracked, or buy a legit copy Don't act like every gamer is automatically a pirate, millions of people are perfectly happy to pay for games and want to see their favourite studios continue. I don't think every gamer is automatically a pirate, though a lot of people do follow the path of least resistance. I pay for my videogames. I support indie devs that don't bundle DRM crap with their games. To be honest, I don't have a lot of time to play any games these days. DRM is anticonsumer for legal buyers. It gives them a worse experience than the people who play pirated copies. Unfortunately I have encountered neither in the real world, although I have defeated both in CTFs before. The defeats sound interesting, have you documented those anywhere? I haven't personally, but you will find multiple writeups googling for "movfuscator ctf writeup" etc. White hat I presume. Wait, how do you make a living from that? Like publishers need you to break their stuff out so they can resell it long after the developer is gone or something? Kind of like red-team hackers testing the security of their website or whatever. Sounds like a dream job for the right person Dream job. If I thought I could get paid doing that I would have been set at 17 years old. Now I'm 38 and still dream of my reversing days. Very cool, very cool. Thank you! The user who answered you isn't the one you were asking it's still a possible answer. Did you get mixed up? Cool beans, dude! You made some god-tier product there. Whoops, that's embarrassing. I quit working at Reddit a few years ago and don't do much there any more, but yes, that's me. Yes it is. Another answer is that some companies need the DRM broken on software where the original developer's company may no longer even exist, yet they rely on the often extremely old software for their critical production line equipment, whose replacement costs would far exceed that of breaking the DRM and sometimes "porting" the software to new hardware i. This is often the realm of hardware dongles and such. Yes, I'm curious about what kind of legal paying job needs that sort of skill set. ChildOfChaos on Sept 18, [—]. You should try strip away the current Denevuo, that is the big challenge, current versions nobody seems able to crack for some time. Do you think there's any hope? Because I've lost all of it. Who's paying for anti-DRM work? Is your company hiring? I interviewed with Arxan. I've been generally impressed with their stuff. Was it an interesting interview? Sounds like it would be an interesting place to work. It was a typical startup: somewhat disorganized, but with some interesting technical questions. I didn't know nearly as much about reversing back when I interviewed as I did now. Most of the questions were on the order of "come up with better ideas than we have", which IMHO is probably not the best way to interview. NoOneNew on Sept 16, [—]. I'm also interested in what was impressive with them. Tell us a story! Dense dynamic recompilation, running inside obfuscated VM, etc. Worked with Arxan's technology for a bit. Not surprised it is getting to the point where cracker's don't have the time to break it. Embracing the point that everything can be broken eventually, the focus becomes just making it take a long time, such that it is not economical, or simply too time consuming "for fun". Arxan's toolkit includes peppering custom checks everywhere in the code, including mechanisms so these checks don't have the same signature and can't be searched for easily once one is found. Further, there are "silent ones", which most of the time don't do anything, but at some point will activate. This makes it so you can think you've broken the protection, and then e. Imagine trying to figure out if memory corruption was on purpose or a normal bug when the corruption happened 1,,, instructions ago by a section of code that is completely innocuous and just had an off-by-1 error introduced via some index calculation. In that way it can be nearly impossible to know if you've fully cracked the game. I mean you can really take the long-con with these things, and let it run for weeks, or even just never notify the user and hit them with a blacklist. Imagine playing a game for hours and then out of nowhere having your progress wiped - pretty harsh lesson if you were invested in it. This was one of the holy grails as I understood it - you could make the software such that the protection system is completely custom for every install of the software, which makes binary patching useless. This would be difficult when distributing the software on discs, but, and this is a key point, trivial these days where games are downloaded. It is easy to custom generate binaries for everyone. This can do things like use a custom key based on your HWID that is literally necessary to decrypt portions of the game code. There is no way around having the correct key for your hardware to literally decrypt and run the code, which through other techniques can be made custom and further checked for authenticity, making it impossible to simply get the decrypted code and patch it in to other installs. Related techniques can be used to determine if you're running a binary that was decrypted on a different machine, and that is before getting into code that is custom-encrypted and decrypted in-memory at runtime based on your current HWID. You're probably thinking you can reason your way around this, but trust me, it has all been thought of before. The closest you could probably come is forcing cracked clients to all run in some kind of identical virtual machine, which is going to be shit for playing a AAA game even if it worked and no protections were able to figure out they were running in a virtual machine, which they can. The list goes on for this tech, and while no single tech is super effective, when they are all put together, it adds up to a knot that very few people will have the motivation or monetary incentive to sort out, or even ability to in a relevant amount of time after the games release. By the time they figure it the next update could be released, and all that is left is to look back in misery at the time of their life they wasted cracking an old version of a game. Johnny on Sept 18, [—]. So it's basically uncrackable. The frustrating thing about this DRM is that RDR2 requires an internet connection in order to play the single-player game. At one point my internet was down and I couldn't play it. Obviously not the biggest problem in the world, but still an annoyance. It's a big fucking problem, if you ask me. Does this actually happen though? I mean, I acknowledge the theoretical possibility. Is it a commonplace occurrence? It's never happened to me, personally. If it did I'd likely be frustrated but I'd just play something else for a few days. To give an example from my own experience, a hour flight is one of the most annoying places to find you can't play the game you'd been expecting to play, and you may not be able to just grab another one. Stevvo on Sept 17, [—]. I have a Surface Book 2 which I know has an unusually low-powered power supply such that gaming will drain the battery even when plugged in , but given how much power sockets are now normal and expected, I'd be surprised if they couldn't handle most laptops. Dylan on Sept 17, [—]. It looks like a U can run the game at 30fps low settings, and that's a 15 watt part. And the issue applies to other games and intermittent play too. I am from Brazil and because of that I never get online-only singleplayer games. For example I never played Diablo 3, not even in a friend house or a demo if there is one, I never checked. Ditto for Sim City 5, despite me being a huge fan of Sim City 4. You did yourself a huge favour by not playing SimCity 5. The sequel to SimCity 4 came out, and it was called Cities: Skylines. I know. I nagged EA to let me fix SimCity 4 bugs, but they didn't help. I found some former employees and nagged them about stuff, interestingly instead the result was being informed they were trying to organize the release of EASTL, so I nagged EA about THAT instead, and kept talking to the employees. That part DID work. The most recent PSPS lasted 48 hours. In , cumulative PSPS time was nearly one week though I logged it at the time I forget the exact number now, something like ish hours. EDIT: I'd like to add that phone tethering isn't a great fallback though it's better than nothing , as literally everyone begins using their cell connection for everything which causes the latency to be very high and the speed to be frustratingly low. It happens regularly with Ubisoft's Uplay. Like the launcher can't access the Internet so you can't access your games. I bought two copies of Anno because I thought I could play with my wife. Big mistake. Uplay is completely busted and I've never been able to get multiplayer working. Wish I could refund that garbage. The vast majority of the world's population live in places with power outages and flaky internet connectivity. It's extremely commonplace. I live in London and my upstream internet connection is going down multiple times a day at the moment which is extremely frustrating. Future fallible not future proof. There are plenty of developed countries with awful internet infrastructure. Australia where I live is one of those places. I'm always amazed by this. I live in Vietnam, out of town on a rural road, and I get a solid 60mb connection for both mobile and wired. Why can't rich countries like Australia manage this? I know population density factors in, but we're not talking about getting data in the outback - just where people actually live. A lot of the existing infrastructure is very poorly maintained but due to Telstra being privatised back in the 90's but still owning the infrastructure Under their Wholesale division the government essentially still has to pay them a fuckton of money to put any new cables in the ground using "Their" conduits. Our government decided to make our internet infrastructure political rather than choosing what was best for the nation. The right-wing party saw no need for fiber internet, and our left-wing party wanted a proper fiber infrastructure. Australia is massive, and was in dire need of a national infrastructure upgrade. Rupert Murdoch who owns Foxtel and a large number of newspapers is highly right-wing and heavily supported the right-wing government. That government has been changed out since then, but we're left with the lasting effects of their decisions. It's probably not a common-place occurrence because anyone who doesn't have perpetual connection to internet just avoids things like this. I just spent the last month in Colorado mountains doing web development without an internet connection I walked to the nearest spot on occasion for email. We do exist. Semaphor on Sept 17, [—]. Just sometimes would be enough for me to switch the publisher to a list of "never buy-always pirate". Except if every game pulled this crap, then you wouldn't be able to play anything while your internet is down. Usually, when internet is down, I stop working start playing single player games. The biggest concern for me is, what happens when you want to play the game again in 10 years time, when the DRM servers are offline? When you buy DRM'ed media, you are merely renting it for an unspecified duration. A lot of companies are at least removing the more aggressive DRMs eg. Denuvo some time after the prime sales window has passed, at which point they would either have minimal DRM like Steam, or be fully cracked. That goes for all media and all software. This whole process gets much easier once you accept that this is actually what you pay for, and anything beyond a short rent, is just a bonus. Being able to play a game in 10 years, play it offline, or sell it would always be surprising to me. So I wouldn't assume those things to be possible when I buy it. That obviously makes fewer products worth buying, which saves me money. So long as that's the calculation, there is rarely any disappointment. I cannot get over this mindset. Your favourite music that brings back memories? There is no guarantee that a particular album or movie will be re-released on a new format. It's still possible to play N64 cartridges, watch VHS tapes, read books. Until they fall apart, that's how long you've got to enjoy them, but they won't do so quickly if you take great care of them. You will be able to pass them on as heirlooms or co-experience them with your descendants. It's a treasured, very human activity. If we don't have memories AND something to care for in the present, what do we even live for? It's not enough to live in the present, we must remain in touch with our heritage. No, I mean I think that's a shame - but I just factor it into the equation. If that isn't enough for me to buy it, I won't. There of course is a secondary question here too: should I buy these games even though I'm then contributing to this poor state of affairs when I buy DRM games rather than voting with my wallet? I don't consider that Although I'd avoid e. And tbh. In 10 years you're better off just playing the 8K remaster on PS6 or maybe just playing red dead redemption 3 which is pretty much the same game but with better graphics and combat. Yes, the remaster, on a locked-down hardware platform, both of which I will have to pay for again. Hopefully by then I will also be too old to remember what 'anti-consumer' means. In other words, you would have to be very lucky. I find that extremely offensive, honestly. I'm not allowed to play a god-damned game that I purchased offline when nothing about the actual game requires network access? That's ridiculous! Not under all circumstances, no. I was in no way blocked from playing it on a brand new PS4 that was never connected to internet. However I pretty reliably experienced, after leaving the PS4 to sleep for longer than days, a severe input glitch when I resumed the game. To fix the glitch I had to restart the PS4 and game, which takes more than 5 minutes. Later I plugged in the internet and the glitch never happened again. I never made the connection between the glitch and DRM, but it seems likely to me now that they are related. I had assumed the glitch was a known bug that the developers were disincentivized to fix because they want the internet connected for telemetry. Within the last 5 years I know some other studios were focusing on single-player experience at ship time knowing people may only have the disk to play, for exmaple service members serving overseas. Medox on Sept 16, [—]. In the meantime the PS4 jailbreak went from version 5. Or to put it differently If you can't crack the game, crack the os. At least in the console world, this gives you the advantage that anything works up a certain fw version afterwards. If I remember correctly, the jump from 5. Sadly, there is not much talk around HN about console hacking. Here is the bounty submission of Andy Nguyen theflow0 for 6. But, then again, they had to and there's not much harm done when the jailbroken fw is a year old. Other than running 3rd party Linux binaries, and maybe adding ad-blockers, is there a gaming benefit? Check out the Switch or PS3 scenes for some examples: save backups and save editing, game mods, overclocking, normally unsupported game controllers. The Switch is a good example - afaik there's still no official way to back up saves for a lot of games botw included , and for the ones where cloud saves are supported it's still a monthly subscription. Your console dies, you lose your saves, no way around it other than jailbreaking. Additionally cloud saves are not supported on some games, including single-player first-party games, and Nintendo's excuse for that is because "cheating. On top of this is a pretty long list of third-party titles. Running homebrew, although I don't know if there's much of a homebrew scene for the ps4. Also you can get a second hand ps4 pretty cheap nowadays relative to it's hardware and power consumption - could make a decent home server if you chucked some variety of linux on there is there much support for the hardware? PS4 is basically a PC at this point one of the main reasons for why no homebrew scene. Piracy, I assume? Running linux, ps4 is based on FreeBSD. Maybe it's just me not being a college student with a very constrained budget anymore, but is using cracked games still a thing nowadays? I'm generally curious about this too. Cracking got harder and licensed distribution in the s became as convenient and consumer friendly as it unlicensed distribution was for pirates in the early s. Region locked games started disappearing, coinciding with less physical media needs to begin with. Flagship titles started being released cross region simultaneously. Downloads and streaming was available and fast. The marketplaces and discovery gradually got better too, still limited here but not better than what the marketplaces distributing unlicensed content have. There is also the part about the budget, but I'm not sure. Expense was a factor, but I'm not sure how big of a factor. The things people do on Steam and other marketplaces is similar to what pirates were doing: downloading a ton of games for free because they could, but only playing the flagship games and never touching the other ones. So the pirates-turned-consumers are still only buying a handful of games, and now also have access to the promotions and plethora of free stuff as the always-consumers. I know a guy, makes minimum wage, poor as shit. Known him a long time, but for how poor he his, he is rich in games. I imagine there are other people like me, where the pirating actually drives sales. From what I can tell, technical literacy has gone down in Gen Z. I have seen some youtube game reviewers openly admit that they acquired some of their games through piracy. In the past I have cracked the games I bought because they needed windows live or some such bullshit to play an offline only game. Two things: 1. Once someone overcomes the upfront information barrier to piracy continued piracy has barely a convenience differential from using official channels. The user going to the steam page to enter their credit card and buy the game is doing as much work as the insider pirate knowing the right trackers to source a cracked version from that often comes with its own one click installer. Especially when official releases encumber the game in DRM that often breaks it for some fraction of legitimate buyers. Games are still, if not region locked, regionally released. You still often cannot get AAA titles within months of publication at any price in many countries and if you can they often cost more than a whole days pay. There is a market to play the latest titles when you have no practical access to them where you live. Still a big scene. Maybe bigger absolute terms, not percentage because gaming is such a huge market now. Also trying to find something, as layman looking for pirated stuff, you will stumble upon with a lot of fake executables filling the os with garbage, fake surveys promising the file, and off course porn. Always thought that burdensome journey to find stuff was very convenient fighting against crackers, not that crackers had to make it this way. Regardless of if using cracked games is still thing, the practice of cracking games will persist. Those who crack games do it for the technical challenge, without deriving any financial benefit from it. I'm ambivalent on the issue of piracy through lack of money. I mean, it's not really a lost sale, and it could generate a repeat paying customer later. Not everyone lives in 1st world countries. It's worth keeping in mind that cracking DRM is pretty much universally criminally illegal these days. So it's not like the world's best security consultants have been working on this non-stop for the last year. However, DRM is not open season for white-hat security engineers like a lot of other areas are. That's like making it illegal to open the bonnet of my car and take the engine apart. Or are you saying it's illegal to build a crack using my private computer? Or are you just saying it's illegal to publish that crack? It is not fair use at all, either. Then you bring even more crime into scope. The law also prohibits trafficking in tools that are primarily designed for circumvention, have only limited commercially significant purpose other than circumvention or are marketed for circumvention. While section can arguably apply to any security researcher, those studying digital rights management DRM of music, movies or other creative content are most likely to face section claims, since Congress intended to protect these copyrighted works when it passed the statute. Fair use is a copyright term, so let's be more specific: Even when you're cracking DRM to enable copyright fair use, the act of cracking will typically be illegal. There are examples of this specific provision of the DMCA being enforced or at the very least being used to threaten into submission on EFF's website. Although there has been a concerted effort to spreaf FUD around "Digital Rights Management" and "Intellectual Property", these things are not, generally speaking, concepts that are found in criminal law. In most all? Modifying Removing DRM on a piece of software that you yourself have bought is perfectly legal. Furthermore, its also legal to tell other people how to do it. There are huge swaths of legislation specifically to spell out the fact that this is not the case. Please refer to the other sub-threads, particularly the information about arrests being made! Not likely. At least not for any practical use cases. The point of removing "rights management" would typically be to grant yourself rights that the copyright holder did not wish to grant you. IANAL, however if you were to remove DRM, but then continue to use the software in a manner that is in line with what the rights-holder intended, then you may be okay. Although, the laws themselves indicate that facilitating removal of DRM is in itself illegal, so I wouldn't count on it. If you were to distribute any tooling, or even technical information about the removal of the DRM, then you're in clear violation. In fact, the stringency of these laws is how the case in the aforementioned Gizmodo article even came to be. Some rights-holders believed that simply mentioning the existence of DRM removal software was a violation of these laws. Fortunately, the courts ruled otherwise, but that's a far cry from publishing technical information explaining how to remove the DRM itself. The DMCA has provisions for fair use and the right to repair exemptions. However, these exemptions aren't even part of the legislation. Instead, every three years the copyright office reviews the exemptions, adding, removing and extending exemptions as they see fit. What's legal in the US now, may not be in three years time. However, it's not at all clear that this section even applies to Article The US have provided exemptions, "because they can". Other countries around the globe are not so lucky. Australia has no exemptions, nor any special processes to introduce them. No, why? It isn't hard to avoid getting caught. The game wouldn't even run for like the first 5 days because they required BIOS updates from manufacturers for the game to even work. The game regularly crashed for me 4 months after release, to the point where I stopped playing it. I wouldn't associate the mess that was motherboard firmware around launch with anything but AMD. The firmware didn't even boost the CPU right either. Because of BIOS issues? I updated the BIOS and nothing changed. After a few months they fixed it. DRM obsessed developers: we need to spend time on this junk and punish our paying customers. All other developers: we spend time on making better games and release them on GOG on day one. There's some evidence that the DRM noticeably slows down the framerate of the game. Plus there's the bloat required to actually launch it Rockstar Social Club The GTA V crack apparently trims away a lot of the fat and makes for a much less intrusive installation and a faster game with better access to custom servers. The guard mechanism inserts non-optimal code as part of its obfuscation process. It does slow down the affected code. The amount depends on how the developers configured the tools and what paths are affected. MaxikCZ on Sept 17, [—]. Ill never forget when I installed original copy of GTA V and needed to create three separate accounts for it. Ofcourse each account had different requirements for passwords, so I couldnt even use one login info for all of them. I think Rockstar is big enough to work on two things at the same time. They are referring to the quality tradeoffs that must be made when adding DRM to a game. It adds overhead at the very least, and many games, Triple As included, have had game breaking faults due to shoddy DRM implementations. Seems to have balanced out ok in RDR2. RDR2 is fairly poorly optimized but I'm not really taking these anecdotal "DRM makes games slow" comments too seriously until there's some proof. Games are almost never CPU bound so I just don't see how obfuscation is supposedly killing performance. Here, I did the quick google search you could have done and found some data on DRM performance implications in real world games. The fact of using DRM is already an insult to their customers. Apparently they can afford insulting those who buy their games. Which customers? I'm one, and I didn't even know it had DRM, much less feel insulted. All customers. DRM treats those who buy their games as apriory potential criminals that's the premise of DRM by its very definition as a preemptive policing. I find it insulting. Those who don't find such kind of approach insulting can probably accept other methodologies of overreaching preemptive policing too. Are you insulted by any business that has video cameras? Metal detectors? Security personnel? Are there any measures of protecting one's business from theft that you find acceptable? To be honest I'm not a huge fan of DRM either but I don't believe it's automatically insulting for people to want to protect themselves from very real threats, even if there are some negative effects for the good samaritans. That's just the nature of the world we live in. I'd surely be, if that business would have any business putting said cameras in my home, like DRM is deployed to police users on their computers and OS they are using - i. That's the overreaching part in DRM being an overreaching preemptive policing. People get the concept of overstepping physical privacy for preemptive policing being unacceptable, so it's the same idea for the digital one. DRM has nothing to with policing. If the DRM kicks in, the product might stop working. If you get "policed", you might end up in jail by force. Policing doesn't need to imply jail, it can mean any policy enforcement, such as: the enforcement of regulations or an agreement. DRM is without a question a policing method, one that's preemptive and overreaching by its definition. Are you insulted by online services that require you to enter a password? I'm not. Anyway, if you're insulted by a game, don't play it. I think you are mixing up authentication with DRM. Authentication is a normal concept, for example for buying something you need to show that you are you, to associate your payment with your purchase. DRM is restricting your usage after you already bought it by deploying some kind of malware in your system. It's overreaching preemptive policing. Define "malware". Authentication also applies for services you've paid for, even after you've paid for them. And none of this has anything to do with police. Something that's aimed against the user, hostile, malicious code mal in malware. Since it treats you as an apriory threat, you should treat it as an apriory threat in return, so as a malware. I can see the argument. It doesn't seem like any more difficult to argue that user authentication is also user-hostile, regardless of whose machine its running on. It's "a priori" btw. Overreaching part is deploying some anti-user tools that enforce restrictions in your private digital space after you already paid for the product. Authentication for the purchase itself is fine, it's not any different than you showing your face in a store when you pay, so the seller gives the product to you because it's you paying. That's what authentication is for. But the seller from the store doesn't send an enforcer along, to make sure you are you even after you already left or to make sure you don't do something else with the product. And it would be even more weird, if that enforcer will accompany you home and will enforce whatever in your private space. And that's exactly what DRM is doing. The farther you take these analogies with physical goods, the more stretched and strained they get. For example, there's not a lot of intellectual property restrictions on a roll of toilet paper. That's because almost all of the value of a roll of toilet paper is in the actual production of the physical thing. On the other hand, software is essentially free as in beer to copy once it exists. So it makes sense that toilet paper doesn't have enforcers. You say that authentication is ok because it's for the purpose of ensuring you paid. But that's also the purpose of DRM, which you say is not ok. So there must be more to the reason. Personally, I don't think DRM is morally wrong in general. I don't see anything stretched in that, especially when DRM proponents very clearly expressed the idea behind it themselves. I already gave you a link above with exact quote. Their idea was to violate users' privacy because "there is simply too much at stake". Something like police state also has "too much at stake" not to use mass surveillance or whatever other overreaching preemptive policing. Daishiman on Sept 16, [—]. With a budget in the hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of engineers involved in RDR2, they can afford it. Presumably this is simply a function of not cracking it within the 30,60,day critical window? Sure, cracking it now would give you "street cred", but you probably gain more by cracking something newer and more popular. I'm pretty sure the only reason people crack games is for street cred, or at least for the technical challenge. Seems like "I cracked the game that noone else could for nearly a year" is a great reason to try to me. This is normal now. Is DRM so totally useless that this is a worthy thing of note? RDR2 is one of the biggest of triple-As. It probably has more cracking effort applied to it than most. I don't think that's evidence that DRM is useless. Nextgrid on Sept 16, [—]. Typically when making a copyrighted creative work your objective is to get paid for that work. Just preventing people that wouldn't pay for it anyway from enjoying that work is a lose-lose situation for both parties involved. While this isn't evidence that DRM is useless, it also isn't evidence that it is useful. That evidence would come from sales numbers if they are significantly higher than another comparable work that wasn't DRM'ed as it would prove that the DRM is actually convincing people to pay for something they normally wouldn't. Piracy is not just a "freeloader" problem. I've been to a few poorer countries where piracy is absolutely normal not because they don't want to pay per-se, but because they just don't have the means to do so or are prevented from doing so by technical or commercial reasons like lack of adequate payment infrastructure or region-locking; in which case you are still better off letting them enjoy the creative work for free and hope to gain the benefits in some other way like them buying your future software when they can finally afford it, or producing good press and raising awareness around other people who can actually afford it. There's also the issue of people for who DRM actually causes problems and prevents them from enjoying work that they did actually pay for, though I personally don't see how the inconvenience of DRM is worse than the risk of running code from an untrusted, anonymous source that might be malicious. Game publishers have that data, very precise data iirc. It was a long time ago but I recall one of the smaller publishers did a long blog post on this topic. They showed sales graphs for one of their games. The graph showed a big spike in the first few days followed by a slow decline. It also showed huge chunks missing drop followed by an identical sized increase a few weeks later. Those chunks were when cracks came out and the increase was when the cracks were broken by multi-player patching. It's simple enough maths to calculate the area of the graph that was missing - that's your lost sales. Apps use DRM because most pirates will in fact buy the game if they can't crack it. They are big into gaming, they want to play the newest games NOW when they are fresh and their friends are talking about it, and they want to play online with others. As DRM has been a feature of gaming for as long as there have been video games, it always baffles me how many people on forums like HN seem to believe only irrational developers would use it. Given a growing market, and the assumption that both games are equally attractive for buyers, RDR2 should at minimum have a small increased number compared to witcher 3. Witcher 3 sold about 30 millions copies over the first 2 years. RDR2 sold 32 millions over the first 2 years. This comparison is invalid. They are two different games with overlapping but not identical fan bases. There are significant demographic, marketing, and competitive differences between the two releases. You really can't draw any conclusions about drm, positive or negative, from the relative sales figures. Eh, hard to say: Witcher 3 was a breakout hit with a relatively niche audience for prior games. It's prior games were also available DRM free. RDR2 was both highly anticipated and had a massive marketing budget. I think your idea is sound, but I just don't know if these are really comparable game launches. Counter-factuals are also very hard to prove. This isn't evidence that DRM is useless. Quite the contrary, it's evidence that DRM can yield resounding successes. What a lot of people don't understand is that DRM has fulfilled its purpose if unauthorized copies are staved off for a few months. Sales usually follow and exponential decay. While some titles experience unprecedented popularity later in life, most games have the overwhelming majority of sales in their first few months after release. It's unclear exactly how piracy affects sales, but assuming that some percentage of potential buyers would pirate instead of buy if illicit copies are available DRM that only delays cracking for a few months captures most of these otherwise lost sales. Phrased from the opposite perspective, most people who would wait several months after release to pirate probably wouldn't have bought the game even if it went un-cracked forever. Again, the standard for "successful" DRM is on the order of several months. RDR2 going uncracked for close to a year is not just successful, but a resounding success. Yay, it worked for one title. I think we can all agree CSS was pretty useless. At least it's not as bad as the master key leaking for Blu-ray. It is possible it is useless, but if so it is surprising that so many stakeholders continue to invest in it. I don't know what the facts are but it is certainly plausible to me that DRM that only holds out for one month still pays for itself. It seems that the prior assumption should be that there is a good reason for the presence of an expensive and reviled feature. The only one I can think of for DRM is that it is useful, chiefly by driving increased sales due to fractional conversion of pirates. Voloskaya on Sept 16, [—]. Based on what? I'll wager that if a DRM is un-cracked for just 15 days it's already worth it. For most video games, the first few weeks after release are where a huge proportion of the sales are done because no one wants to wait to play an hyped game. If you can keep the game uncracked for those 2 weeks then a lot of people that might have downloaded the cracked game will just buy it because they don't want to wait. You do realize whoever wrote the spec for this DRM now has free advertising to be hired for more projects and make bank. Useless, stupid, whatever you want to call it, they're going to print fun-coupons now. The hacker that breaks this DRM will also get level up bonus for their resume. At that point, this theoretical business model you propose will no longer be such a valuable thing. Those fun-coupons will be as valuable as the Chuck E Cheese tickets recently discussed. DRM that takes 1 year to crack is about as good as you can want. What percent of total sales takes place in the first year. If your proposed hacker finds the solution to this one, does that mean they have the general solution? Or does that indicate that this style of DRM in general takes 1 year to crack and is generally valuable? But to be fair, they typically don't have the similar marketing power as a AAA. There must be a good reason for running sales even in the long term. That could also be skewed when you think of in-game purchases too. Cheaper year 2 or 3 purchases could be pushed for if they're banking on in-game purchases. Either way, pretty sure someone broke open an expensive bottle of champagne for a 1 year mark. Your argument can easily apply to locks, safes and general physical security. It will always be done. I've been hearing "DRM is will be useless soon" since the early s. Look, I appreciate the hobby and skills it takes to crack DRM as a logic puzzle. I used to work security integration and I may have had my own similar hobbies. But at the end of the day, the argument of "DRM is useless" is people truly saying, "I don't want to pay for things". Who likes to work for free? I don't and I'm sure as shit you won't work for free either. Do I like Rockstar? I think their games are shit from beginning to end. They're edgelord, teenage wish fulfillment trash. Do I respect when someone spends their time and wishes to get paid for it so they can continue their craft with a roof over their head and food on the table for them and their families? If you don't approve of mandatory crunch times, story lines or whatever anti-capitalist, anarchist, whatever manifesto you subscribe to Fun part about a capitalist system, the best way to hurt someone is to both ignore them and don't buy their stuff. Pirating their stuff, as a lot of folks like to mention, "Doesn't hurt the company". But it does give them reason to be more aggressive, issue lawsuits, get more press attention and generally be bigger assholes that spiral the system out of control. If they can make a profit, you bet your sweet ass they'll figure it out even if it's a long con. So yea, wait for DRM to go bye-bye. Let's see, RDR2 was in dev for around 7 years. You go ahead and work, for someone else, for 7 years on something, about 40 hours a weeks more if you want to include the "controversial working conditions" and don't get paid during that entire time. Not on something YOU want to do. Something that someone else wants done for them. Do that, then come back to me with a real argument for people not to get paid for their work. We're not a society that runs off hugs and kisses. This is false. A lot of people oppose DRM because it's a nasty bit of software running on your hardware, or because it's unwieldy or plain doesn't work. Some people buy a game or ebook, or whatever then use a DRM-stripped version because it's better. And yes, some people play pirated games because they don't want to pay. But don't make it sound as if that was everyone. DRM sucks. Dude, that's the biggest load of crap and you know it. That's what everyone tells themselves so they sleep better at night and seem like some self-righteous Robin Hoods to the public. You pirate because you don't want to pay for it. I was a teen back during Napster and Limewire days Stop acting like it's some great public service, saving the world, doing-the-right-thing cause. The folks that do the actual cracking, again, I actually respect for the skills. That kind of stuff is a real fun hobby. They share their work as a way to showoff. However, it's the users that get free-rides who I think are just ridiculous and delusional. The legal copy was nice in the first year the game came out and I wanted access to all features, so I grimaced and put up with the bloatware required to actually log in to the game and play it. Then I got bored, uninstalled it and didn't play it for a few years. Recently I got a hankering to play it once more and shuddered at the memory of all the intrusive software bloat, as well as the toxic online community centrer around aggressive play. So I went with the crack hassle-free and self-contained in a single directory and joined a FiveM online server for multiplayer play, and the experience was painless, enjoyable even. I don't really know what to tell you except you're wrong. People do what I claimed all the time, you just ignore it happens. I don't pirate games. Nice strawman there. Please try arguing about what was actually said, instead of trying to start a flame war. Negitivefrags on Sept 16, [—]. If DRM lasts a week then it will have done it's job. You're oversimplifying the revenue model of AAA games. Red Dead Redemption has sold 32 Million Copies to date. AnthonyMouse on Sept 17, [—]. You're assuming the people who buy it in the first two weeks are the same people as the people who pirate it. When the people who pirate it are mostly the people who can't afford to pay for it, they weren't going to buy it under any circumstances and how long it takes to break the DRM only determines how long they have to wait before they pirate it. Im not making any assumptions about that. I have no clue if most pirates could afford it or not. The point is that we're not talking about the up front sales, because those are the people who can afford it, not the people who pirate it because they can't. They're after the people who would be pirates or just not have the game at all at the original price, and they do it because those people exist. But the DRM can't do anything about those sales when it's broken by the time the price is reduced, and it can't do anything about the people who pirate the game because they can't afford even that price. I guess I'm not sure if we in disagreement or not, or which part of what I said you are objecting to. If you are only saying that some pirates would never buy the game, or that DRM also saves money later in the game lifecycle, I totally agree. If you are claiming that all or most pirates cant afford the game, or that people who afford it wouldn't download a crack instead, I disagree. My position is that DRM save companies a tremendous amount of money, mostly in the post release period, but also later. I think that many, people who bought the game would pirate instead if the crack existed and was easily accessible. I am saying that most sales occur early in the lifestyle when DRM is generally more effective. Do you agree? I agree that DRM cant make a broke person buy the game or stop a dedicated pirate after it is cracked. Then this is what we're disagreeing about, because most people who can afford the game have no reason to deal with the trouble of pirating it. This isn't to say that if a crack is available immediately there won't be a ton of pirates. They're just mostly not the same people who were paying. In many cases it goes the other way: Someone doesn't know if the game is worth it, so they wouldn't have bought it but they would pirate it to try it out, and then after they figure out they like it, they buy it e. Especially when the version they buy isn't less convenient than the version they pirate. Thanks for clarifying. It would be interesting to know what portion of pirates cant afford the game and what the conversion rate is. I suspect we each have our own anecdotal experience and there isn't clear data one way or another. For example, I have known probably two dozen pirates and every single one of them could afford the games but were just frugal. Probably half would have bought the game at if it was the only option, and half the games would not be bought at any price. I have never once met someone who bought a game after having installed a fully functional crack. Also, part of the point of DRM is to make it more complicated to pirate and instal a game, even if the crack is available. Just not exclusively up front. Sure, I would agree that it is not exclusive. Most of the revenue for a single player game, like RDR, is made in the first couple weeks and tapers off. By the next year the sister studio is releasing the sequel to the game. RDR2 has an online mode with micro transactions. They'll be aiming to milk it for years like they have with GTA5. Is the behavior of those friends at all affected by DRM? If not, then they're not the targets. The conditional part of your condition fails. I don't know if it's trustworthy, but crackwatch. Do they have any way of measuring the volume of effort at attempting to crack it? I think it's noteworthy now, but it'll be commonplace once we're completely locked out of our own hardware. Even crappy DRM is useful though. As long as it thwarts casual copying, the only way to pirate a game is to get it off the internet which means trusting someone you've never met. Yes, game DRM is usually cracked within a week or so. Sometimes it's cracked on release doom eternal when the cracking groups get an advanced copy. Broadly, yes. Hacker News new past comments ask show jobs submit. AniseAbyss on Sept 17, [—] The way I see it, considering games are made to make money, the only alternative to DRM is going free to play. Merem on Sept 17, [—] Steam Workshop is also part of Valve's "walled garden" strategy. ThatPlayer on Sept 17, [—] But it's not the only system. AngryData on Sept 17, [—] Except the forced updates can easily break mods and managing your mods with the steam workshop is garbage. IntelMiner on Sept 17, [—] Steam and Proton beg to disagree. ThatPlayer on Sept 17, [—] That's most anti-cheats, not just Epic's. ThatPlayer on Sept 17, [—] Watch out then. Causality1 on Sept 17, [—] It's the unreliability I can't tolerate. Causality1 on Sept 17, [—] Prime Video quality seems breathtakingly bad to me as well. Camas on Sept 17, [—] opening a pdf is a difficult task for most people exaggerating slightly but you know what I mean. ChrisRR on Sept 17, [—] For gamers, it means that the studio may be able to afford to release a sequel to their favourite games For pirates, it means they either have to wait until it's cracked, or buy a legit copy Don't act like every gamer is automatically a pirate, millions of people are perfectly happy to pay for games and want to see their favourite studios continue. ChildOfChaos on Sept 18, [—] You should try strip away the current Denevuo, that is the big challenge, current versions nobody seems able to crack for some time. NoOneNew on Sept 16, [—] I'm also interested in what was impressive with them. Johnny on Sept 18, [—] So it's basically uncrackable. Dylan on Sept 17, [—] It looks like a U can run the game at 30fps low settings, and that's a 15 watt part. Medox on Sept 16, [—] In the meantime the PS4 jailbreak went from version 5. TAForObvReasons on Sept 17, [—] Check out the Switch or PS3 scenes for some examples: save backups and save editing, game mods, overclocking, normally unsupported game controllers. Stevvo on Sept 17, [—] Regardless of if using cracked games is still thing, the practice of cracking games will persist. Daishiman on Sept 16, [—] With a budget in the hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of engineers involved in RDR2, they can afford it. ChildOfChaos on Sept 18, [—] This is normal now. Nextgrid on Sept 16, [—] Typically when making a copyrighted creative work your objective is to get paid for that work. NoOneNew on Sept 16, [—] You do realize whoever wrote the spec for this DRM now has free advertising to be hired for more projects and make bank. NoOneNew on Sept 16, [—] Your argument can easily apply to locks, safes and general physical security. NoOneNew on Sept 16, [—] Dude, that's the biggest load of crap and you know it. AnthonyMouse on Sept 17, [—] You're assuming the people who buy it in the first two weeks are the same people as the people who pirate it. AnthonyMouse on Sept 17, [—] The point is that we're not talking about the up front sales, because those are the people who can afford it, not the people who pirate it because they can't.